2018 IFPA Points for Wisconsin Pinheads

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Hilton
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Re: 2018 IFPA Points for Wisconsin Pinheads

Post by Hilton » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:44 am

RobA wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:19 pm
I think all of the tournament directors in the state have to agree to use the Wisconsin system and drop the IFPA.
I would like to see that also, but sounds like Tom is going to run IFPA and I totally respect his choice to do it.

If some people want to run IFPA, and others want to run just for fun, and others want to run WiFPA, and others want to run for IFPA and WiFPA...
then I think it is all good. Just my opinion but I am totally open to work it out with others wanting to do a WiFPA. I just want to have fun with competitive pinball.

Things will work themselves out. By the sounds of it and what I have been told, the majority of events and big events would be all be WiFPA if it happens. My perception is that if the majority of events are all under a new system then those that play in events with that system will be happy to also participate in an end of year Championship match and party. I mean, if we wanted to incentivize the new system then we just need to make it more fun :)

I guess that begs the questions of active players... What is your incentive to play in sanctioned events that work towards and end of year championship?
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Chris K
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Re: 2018 IFPA Points for Wisconsin Pinheads

Post by Chris K » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:05 am

I'll pile on to the "don't use "WIFPA" bandwagon here. Their logo is already a registered service mark and they're a well-known business in the "industry". You will be forced to change immediately, for the cost of a nastygram from a lawyer.
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ralphwiggum
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Re: 2018 IFPA Points for Wisconsin Pinheads

Post by ralphwiggum » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:13 am

I have unlimited web hosting and unlimited space.... save your money that you would pay for hosting and use it towards development- there is going to be a lot of cost in development. More-so just the amount of time it is going to take. Secure a domain name you want and I will point it to a folder on my web host and you can do anything you want with it.... That includes Mysql databases, apache server, etc....
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Hilton
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Re: 2018 IFPA Points for Wisconsin Pinheads

Post by Hilton » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:48 am

ralphwiggum wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:13 am
I have unlimited web hosting and unlimited space.... save your money that you would pay for hosting and use it towards development- there is going to be a lot of cost in development. More-so just the amount of time it is going to take. Secure a domain name you want and I will point it to a folder on my web host and you can do anything you want with it.... That includes Mysql databases, apache server, etc....
Thanks Tim. I have zero idea what any of those words mean, but I assume any IT person that puts something together will :)

I think for this to work, we would for sure need a dedicated person passionate to make it happen that also has the skills. I wish it was in my wheel house as I would have it already built. I started to look into it and quickly realized it was far outside of my realm.

I am happy to pay to offset some of the time of a pinhead that would need to program this. Known anyone that could make this happen in a relatively short timeframe? (by end of Oct?)

For naming, maybe just call it WPA, Wisconsin Pinball Association. Simple and straight forward is usually best in these matters :)
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Re: 2018 IFPA Points for Wisconsin Pinheads

Post by ralphwiggum » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:57 am

Just make sure the domain name shortens nicely....

I dunno that WipAss.org rolls off the tongue so smooth.... LOL
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Hilton
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Re: 2018 IFPA Points for Wisconsin Pinheads

Post by Hilton » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:59 am

LOL

that is amazing!

"Hey man, what is you WIpAss ranking this year?"
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Chris K
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Re: 2018 IFPA Points for Wisconsin Pinheads

Post by Chris K » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:47 am

WPA sounds good. I don't think the Wi-Fi Alliance would be too stressed out about a pinball group. :)

Better yet, wpapin and wpapinball are both available.
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TomGWI
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Re: 2018 IFPA Points for Wisconsin Pinheads

Post by TomGWI » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:58 pm

So if I run a tournament or League under the IFPA would I also be able to run that same tournament under the WI state ranking system?

Who will be in charge of collecting data for the ranking system and posting it?

Will it be 100% the same as the IFPA points and ranks? Will it be calculated the exact same way as the iFPA does?

Will it have written guidelines which are set in stone and do Not change during the year?
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Re: 2018 IFPA Points for Wisconsin Pinheads

Post by Hilton » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:25 pm

TomGWI wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:58 pm
So if I run a tournament or League under the IFPA would I also be able to run that same tournament under the WI state ranking system?

Who will be in charge of collecting data for the ranking system and posting it?

Will it be 100% the same as the IFPA points and ranks? Will it be calculated the exact same way as the iFPA does?

Will it have written guidelines which are set in stone and do Not change during the year?
I think these are things that need to be decided up front by those that want to do a WPA system. I can share my general opinion below.

1. Yes, if you want to report to both then report to both. I see no reason for WPA to be restrictive. If someone wants to run an event that is both IFPA sanctioned and WPA sanction then that is fine.

2. If WPA happens then I think it should be a community run system. Ideally anyone can go easily register an event at least 30 days prior to holding that event and it automatically pops up on a calendar. They can submit the format of the event and expected TGP value of the event. After the event is held then they can submit the results, TGP, and player positions for the event by logging into the system and submitting results just like they do now for IFPA.

3. 100% may be difficult; mainly because their algorithm of providing added points based on strength of player is very dynamic and the rate of decay of the equation is also a bit more complicated it seems. 95% seems feasible from what I have seen. I like the current IFPA system for determining an event value based on number of players and number of games required to path of victory. In short I dont think a WPA system would be statistically different from an IFPA system and we should strive to solidify a system that already uses the good things from the IFPA.

One thing I see open for debate is the "must have played in 5 events to be worth .5 points to the base value of an event thing" I see flaws in this and I think others have experienced the flaws of this since it was implemented last year. Either way , this is a marginally small difference, but treating all people equal if just a good thing in life in general and I see no reason to not treat a new player as equal value as an experienced player. I think the IFPA made this rule up mainly due to 1 person in NYC that was abusing it in their system and reporting randoms with no proof of them existing. That is a problem I dont see existing in a smaller scale of WI events. I also think this makes any system more difficult to create since you cant just treat all players as the same.

4. Yes, i would propose it has written guidelines that are published and held solid. I think for any tracking system things need to be complete transparent and also not change continuously or surprise the player base.
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TomGWI
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Re: 2018 IFPA Points for Wisconsin Pinheads

Post by TomGWI » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:31 pm

I honestly wouldn't worry about the rate of decay.

I would just tabulate for each year and start fresh the following year. Keep the last years' numbers as a history. Will be much easier.

I think the goal would be point totals for the year anyways and to crown a WPA a state champ and not necessarily who is #1 in the state over a series of years.
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Re: 2018 IFPA Points for Wisconsin Pinheads

Post by Hilton » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:49 pm

I agree that the annual tabulation is the main interest.

I was having difficulty explaining what I meant about rate of decay. Mor appropriately I meant the dynamic value of an event. I aslo meant how points are awarded based on finishing place and how that changes with the # of people in the event.

The IFOA currently uses a relatively complex equation for determining the value of an event and the points awarded to each player.

There is a base value that is a simple calcuation of the # of rated players in the event * .5. I think this can be simplified to the number of players in an event *.5 (i.e. rated/ playing in 5 events before you add value is over complicated for a smaller region like ours where we dont assume someone is going to sign up a bunch of non-players)

After base value they use a dynamic player strength addition. The is what takes an event from a base value of 10 for example to a base value of 11.39 because a few string players participated in it. It basically adds a certain amount based on how good the overall player base is. This again makes things a bit more complicated and since a WPA system in its first year wont have a database to go off of, everyone will start with the same dynamic value anyway. Here I think simple is better and just do away with the dynamic value as it is typically a small percent of the overall base value.

Next is to determine the equation for actual points awarded based on finishing position. If an event has a base value of 10 then the curve of decline determining how many points are awarded to 2, 3, 4th, etc... position changes based on how many people played int he event. More people in an event means they stretch out further. This should be easy to work out with a little more help from Josh.

I think we can come up with the base equation and then just build it in so when a TD reports results they just need to input names and finishing position and then TGP. They can type in the actual format for QC of TGP, but then the sytem should be able to calculate everything on its own based on # of players, base value from that and TGP, and properly award points based on the overall equation.
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TomGWI
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Re: 2018 IFPA Points for Wisconsin Pinheads

Post by TomGWI » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:31 pm

Gotcha
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TomGWI
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Re: 2018 IFPA Points for Wisconsin Pinheads

Post by TomGWI » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:47 am

By the way, if any of the heads of League want to reach out to me about what they plan to do for their leagues in 2018 regarding the IFPA please contact me.
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Re: 2018 IFPA Points for Wisconsin Pinheads

Post by Hilton » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:18 am

TomGWI wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:47 am
By the way, if any of the heads of League want to reach out to me about what they plan to do for their leagues in 2018 regarding the IFPA please contact me.

sounds like Madison League is discussing this upcoming Sat at League night.
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TomGWI
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Re: 2018 IFPA Points for Wisconsin Pinheads

Post by TomGWI » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:59 am

We will be discussing ours in October (soon).
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